73% of B2B marketers cite an increased interest in influencer marketing this year. And that’s good, because it’s been shown conclusively that buyers are eager to make purchases based on the recommendations of influencers and content creators.
And yet, there’s still a tremendous amount of confusion and trepidation when it comes to influencer marketing. Is it just for B2C brands? Is Instagram losing it’s luster? Should B2B brands be focusing on TikTok?
That’s what we’re covering in today’s episode of Partnership Unpacked.
Welcome back to Partnership Unpacked, where I selfishly use this time to pick the brains of experts at strategic partnerships, channel programs, affiliates, influencer marketing, and relationship building… oh, and you get to learn too! Subscribe to learn how you can amplify your growth strategy – with a solid takeaway every episode from partnership experts in the industry.
Now, I mentioned at the outset how much more marketers, even B2B marketers, are investing into influencer marketing this year. One of the big challenges though is that the vast majority of the information online today is geared toward B2C influencers. Celebrities and other social media influencers who have amassed large followings and are able to make purchase recommendations from their platform.
B2B CEOs and CMOs, like many of you, are often left wondering who they’re supposed to work with when it comes to influencers. What kind of content should we be creating? And which channels should we really focus on?
That’s what Gordon Glenister is here to help us with.
As a podcast host, consultant, and author of the best selling book, “Influencer Marketing Strategy: How to Create Successful Influencer Marketing,” Gordon is a global influencer marketing expert. He recently partnered with Ryan Hilliard of HypeAuditer to put together the State of Influencer Marketing 2023 report, packed with trends and data that we want to UNpack.
Partnership Unpacked host Mike Allton talked to Gordon Glenister about:
♉️ Is Instagram still the preferred platform for using influencers to impact buying decisions?
♉️ Do we have to focus on influencers with the largest followings?
♉️ How should B2B brands approach influencer marketing today?
Learn more about Gordon Glenister
Resources & Brands mentioned in this episode
Full Notes & Transcript:
Influencer Marketing Trends & Insights For CMOs with Gordon Glenister
[00:00:00] Mike Allton: 73% of B2B marketers cite an increased interest in influencer marketing this year, and that’s good because it’s been shown conclusively that buyers are eager to make purchases based on the recommendations of influencers and content creators. And yet, there’s still a tremendous amount of confusion and trepidation when it comes to influencer marketing.
Is it just for B2C brands? Is Instagram losing its luster? Should B2B brands be focusing on TikTok? That’s what we’re covering in today’s episode of partnership.
This is Partnership unpacked your Go-to guide to Growing your Business through partnerships quickly. I’m your host, Mike Alton. At each episode unpacks the winning strategies and latest trends from influencer marketing to brand partnerships and ideas that you can apply your own business to.
Exponentially. And now the rest of today’s episode, welcome back to Partnership Unpacked, where I selfishly used this time to pick the brains of experts at strategic partnerships, channel programs, affiliates, influencer marketing and relationship building. Oh, and you get to learn, too. Subscribe to learn how you can amplify your growth strategy with a solid takeaway.
Every episode from partnership experts. In the industry. I’m Mike Alton, and I’m here in the home office in St. Louis. Now, I mentioned at the outset how much more marketers, even B2B marketers are investing in influencer marketing this year. One of the big challenges though, Is that the vast majority? The information online today is geared towards B2C influencers, celebrities, and other social media influencers who’ve got amassed large followings and are able to make purchase recommendations from their platform.
B2B CEOs and CMOs, like many of you, Are often left wondering who they’re supposed to work with when it comes to influencers. What kind of content should we be creating, in which channels should we really focus on? That’s what Gordon Glenister is here to help us with as a podcast host, consultant, and author of the bestselling book.
Influencer marketing strategy, how to create successful influencer marketing. Gordon is a global influencer marketing expert. He recently partnered with Ryan Hilliard of Hype Auditor to put together the state of influencer marketing 2023 report packed with trends and data that we want to. Unpacked. So let’s bring him on and see what we could learn from him and this report.
Hey Gordon, welcome to the show.
[00:02:40] Gordon Glenister: Hello, Mike. Lovely to see you. [00:02:42] Mike Allton: Lovely to see you, man. I haven’t seen you in a few months. We had a wonderful lunch. We got to get together in London a few months ago. I’m looking forward to seeing you in June. I’ve got my tea. I want to ask you to raise your cup, because I know it’s after hours there. [00:02:56] Gordon Glenister: Yeah, well it’s actually And Kit , that’s f. [00:03:01] Mike Allton: Gordon, I want us to start by kind of level setting. I want people to understand who you are and why you’ve got this background, why I’ve brought you on the show. So just please share a bit more of your background and your experience in influencer marketing. [00:03:14] Gordon Glenister: Well, how long have you got Mike
I will say that I sort of fell into it actually, because I used to be the CEO of a, an industry trade body, which was the Promotional Merchandise Association for 11. And in 2018, that’s not, not long ago really. I left that job to start a new career, which I thought was actually helping other associations, but ended up founding the UK Association for Influencer Marketing through the branded Content Marketing Association.
Actually, we just realized that yes, while there. Organizations that supported the industry for general marketing and social media. There was nothing specifically to support influencer marketing. So we had a big party in a London nightclub and we got invited loads of influences and brands and it was just quite amazing.
And then not long after that, I launched Influence the Global Podcast, and that’s now in its fifth season. We’ve had over a hundred episodes we publish. Every fortnight. And then a little while after that I went to a show realizing that I couldn’t really see many books on influencer marketing or they were very niche and specialists and I really wanted a book to help me.
And I thought, well, you know, there’s one thing that you can do to become influential if you are not seemingly that in the first place, and that is to surround yourself with. Other influential people. So guess what I did? I went and interviewed loads of people, 70 in total, and then put those comments and attributes into my book.
So it’s really, it’s a compendium of, of information, so I’m really pleased about that. I’ve actually, I dunno if I’ve told you this, Mike, but I’ve also, uh, made a film because one of the publishers in Brazil, south America, wanted to translate the book into Portuguese, and they also said, we’re interested in making a documentary.
Would you like. Partner with us. I thought, yeah, wow, this sounds pretty amazing, and we’d like to fly you over to Brazil for the screening in a Sao PA cinema. And they put the tickets on just one week before the actual screening and they sold out in just one minute. So that just shows you the power of, of influencer marketing, particularly in some of these other emerging countries.
So that was really exciting. And the book last year reached. Final for the business book awards, which I was very humbled at. I mean, really, I mean, I didn’t think I was an author and all of a sudden I’m, but I think what is interesting about what I try and do is I try and declutter the language that sometimes us marketers tend to use, so that actually the everyday person can understand what I.
And influencer marketing is, is all about, I mean, it’s nothing new. I mean, we’ve trusted the opinions of others through word of mouth for years. So in a way this is just a, a new title. But you know, that’s my sort of background. I also write for London newspaper as well, which is quite exciting. So I’ve got a column and that’s really important actually because one of the issues I’ve had a big problem with is, Influencer marketing sometimes gets knocked because obviously there has been some stupid stories in the press, but equally, there are some fabulous people that create amazing content with fantastic results in their campaigns.
So I just wanna be a beacon that celebrates what best practice and those individuals are around influencer marketing.
[00:06:36] Mike Allton: That’s awesome. And you’re absolutely right. It’s not new as a term, it’s decades old. But when I teach brands how to do influence marketing, when I, when I’m on a stage or something like that, I often tell the story that one of the first true influencers was Mark Twain back in the early 19 hundreds.
Right. He was working for the Conlin Penn Company and endorsing their pen. And I, I tell the story about how he was a perfect brand fit cuz obviously he was writing and pinning his thoughts. . So it’s not new. But to your point, there are lots of horror stories. There is a lot of confusion today over what B2B brands should be doing.
There’s, as I said in the outside trepidation brands a little bit like, ah, I don’t know if I really wanna work with influencers and deal with all that. So let’s dig into this report and see what kind of light we can shed on some of this. What can you tell us just at a high level, what was this report that you worked on with Hype Auditor?
[00:07:27] Gordon Glenister: Yeah, well it, what’s really interesting is looking at some of the trends that have come out of it. I think what we are now Mike in is, we’re in the attention economy. You know, people’s attention spans are dropping. So once, I mean, we, we know that video is very, very important. In fact, 80% of the world’s internet traffic is now on video.
We also know that Instagram is, The go-to place when it comes to influencer marketing. That’s not to say though that TikTok isn’t a significant force now because actually it’s far easier to grow your influence and your brand sometimes on TikTok. Certainly during the pandemic, we had some examples of of individuals that came from almost nowhere to, to having thousands and thousands of subscribers and fans.
But you know why? Because that content was authentic. It was entertaining, it was educational. At the end of the day, if content is relevant to their audience, it will fly. That’s the bottom line. And you know, I always say to people, make sure that you really understand what your audience want, not what you think they want, but you know, eSports, of course, big area of growth.
We now know that, you know, like 40% of 18 to 24 year olds prefer TikTok over Google search. We also know that live streaming is becoming. And even more popular medium for brands. You know, once upon a time, if you remember in the early days of, of influence, marketing is all about brand awareness. You know, more and more we’re seeing companies realizing that they’re getting high levels of conversion Now, and when I say conversion, that isn’t always sales, but it’s just driving actions further down the.
And much more quicker. We’re also seeing an increase in growth in nano influencers. People prefer user generated content more and more. Why? Because those individuals seem to be more relatable and relevant and responsive to their audiences. And so that’s really interesting as well. And as you rightly said, B2B growth, we’re seeing a lot more of that, and that’s all very exciting.
But you know, I always say it’s about finding the right influencer. That are relevant to your brand, that’s most important. You know, and when we’ve done surveys in the past, we’ve often talked about 11 times greater ROI than almost any other form of media. I always, always caveat that by saying, you know, when done well and when we’re using objectives, And goals that we can then measure.
You can’t measure something if you’ve not set a goal in place to do that. The other thing I think is really fascinating is about using, one of the benefits of influencer marketing is using a wide range of, of influencers. You know, you don’t have to now put all of your budget into a mega or celebrity influencer because if it dies, then that’s all your money gone.
Whereas actually plenty of examples of where somebody, a brand that’s starting out or emerging, Could work with maybe five or 10 influencers that are nano influencers and really who knows what could happen. You know, each of those have got different audiences and what’s happening more and more and the growth in these niches and super niches, those are the ones that are really driving the growth for brands more and more.
What else is there? I mean, the ages as. What I find interesting here, I mean, just looking at this for example, and we, we can share a copy of this by the way, afterwards, you know, if we look at seven out of 10 of the most talked about brands on TikTok, we’re new to this list in 2022. Brands like Sheen Official, target, Netflix, Sephora, Amazon.
All up there with working and using influencer marketing, but the big fashion brands like Pretty little thing, fashion Nova, they’re all very much still in play.
[00:11:22] Mike Allton: Yes. It’s fascinating and I appreciate that what you’ve done has given us a very high level. Broad strokes. Here are a lot of the conclusions that we found in this report.
And so now we’re gonna go through and we’re gonna unpack a lot of the things that you just said. And for those of you watching live, feel free to, you know, drop in a question if there’s something that really stood out to you or you’ve got big questions about. I know one of my first questions is, you talked about how easy it is to.
Relatively speaking, build a following on TikTok. How popular live streaming continues to be to this today, even though we’re not live streaming to TikTok and we’re not live streaming to Instagram, and yet Instagram continues to dominate as the preferred platform for influencer marketing. Why do you think that might be?
[00:12:03] Gordon Glenister: Well, I think it’s because it was the first, and therefore that’s where people. Traditionally grown their audience and they’ve had a number of tools that have been developing over the last two or three years now, which makes it very, very easy for, it’s, it’s like it’s a safe place for people where they know their audience is, and so if you think about it with the others, they’re having to grow and develop those.
Whereas, whereas Instagram, It’s visually stimulating as well. It’s got a lot of the functionality which influences really find beneficial and useful.
[00:12:38] Mike Allton: I think the visual component is a big key to being a successful influencer because if you can see me and you can hear me, it’s a lot easier for me to establish trust and authenticity.
And I say that as a blogger, I love to write, but I know this is a much more powerful medium for me to communicate and deliver, that sort of thing. So one of the other things I noticed, . It wasn’t surprising to see nano influencers come in as the largest percentage of of influencers, but was shocking. Was seeing nano influencers score the highest engagement rate at 2.5300000000000002% according to the report.
That’s more than double every other influencer tier. Why do you think that might be, and kind of what’s the takeaway for brands, particularly in that b2b.
[00:13:20] Gordon Glenister: Well, I sort of touched on it earlier. I think it’s because they seem to be more relatable to their audience. They’re more responsive. I mean, if you think about it, you are a mid-tier influencer with a hundred thousand followers, and let’s just say you had a high percentage of comments and likes.
You’re not gonna have the time perhaps to be able to go back to each of those and continue the conversation, whereas you’re more likely to do that if you’ve got a smaller audience, which actually builds up a sense of community. I tend to see that more within nano influencers, so therefore, the followers feel that they’re more closely align.
With that influencer, that’s, it’s one of them. It could be somebody that they could meet locally as opposed to like a megastar that feels like it’s an aspirational and untouchable individual. You know, almost like a celebrity. And so when those people, those nano influencers start recommending products, they do so in a way that just feels authentic and genuine when they’re doing some of their stories.
It looks fun and it looks exciting, and then they do maybe, Let’s just say a makeup video. They’re taking a bit more time to show people how these products are working. And it’s not overly rehearsed. I mean, I’m generalizing now, but generally, yeah. And by the way, we’ve talked about beauty in fashion. You, you could be a nano influencer, fly fishing expert with a thousand followers.
But because it’s such a niche audience, I would’ve thought that actually somebody telling the stories of what it’s like to fish on the lake, all of the different tackle they used, what happens in the night when the fish comes, you can imagine some really good content there, which for a rod manufacturer would be absolutely perfect.
So I’m a great believer in the relevance of the follower base is as important as the number of followers overall.
[00:15:18] Mike Allton: And I love that you dropped the word community. That’s definitely a perspective on audience that may or may not be there particularly for that larger influencer, right? Where they’re not really thinking about their audience as a community, and maybe they are, maybe they say they are, but they aren’t necessarily treating them.
Community because in their defense, if you’ve got a million followers, it’s hard to be in community at that kind of a scale when it’s one to many. But yeah, those nano influencers have that built in benefit where it’s just a lot easier for them to engage.
[00:15:51] Gordon Glenister: To try and answer that question will have a team behind them that is doing that.
But then of course, then you feel like, is that really the person that’s liking and commenting that, or is that the publicist doing that? Is that the part of the social media team? Do you know what I mean?
[00:16:08] Mike Allton: Uh oh, absolutely. Yeah. Cause if they’re doing it, Authentically, that means they’re responding as Sue, the author George in lowercase after the comment.
Right? So we all know this is actually George that made this comment on behalf of the influencer. Yeah, that’s, that. That doesn’t have the same feeling.
[00:16:25] Gordon Glenister: Not at all. No. I mean, look, we’re all, we’re all about creating relationships here. I always say brands, when they work well with influencers, it’s about building relationships.
And I know you’re gonna talk to me about long-term relationships. It’s really, really important.
[00:16:38] Mike Allton: Oh, We’re definitely gonna come back to that cuz this that’s, I mean that’s one of the most key and core underlying principles of the entire show is something I talk about with every guest. But to stay on this particular topic, cuz we saw the same over result overall results in TikTok with regard to nano influencers, but the overall engagement rates were tremendously higher than that of Instagram.
Is that a sign that brands should be shifting party to TikTok?
[00:17:05] Gordon Glenister: Well, I’ll tell you why I think that is. It’s because it’s largely an entertainment channel. Not all, but it is being seen as that. So of course, by the sheer nature of some of the content, I mean it’s very addictive. TikTok. I mean, for those of you that are watching or listening to this, I’m sure those of you that aren’t on TikTok or watch it, once you get into it, you just think to yourself, oh my goodness, what?
Where’s that last two hours gone? But it is, I know myself, I will comment and like on way more. Content on TikTok than I will on on Instagram. But am I gonna buy anything from those individuals? Am I gonna do anything? No. So I would suggest my call to action is far lower on TikTok, even though my engagement.
Is, so I just think it’s because of the nature of it being slightly more entertainment driven rather than purposeful driven on Instagram.
[00:18:04] Mike Allton: How interesting. Now, it was notable that the top brands that were represented on TikTok were beat to see. Have you seen any B2B brands that have had some notable success on TikTok? [00:18:16] Gordon Glenister: Still in its infancy, but there are some organizations on TikTok that are doing this. I mean, well, I saw one guy that was like an American lawyer, but he was, you know, normally, you know, many of his competitors wouldn’t be anywhere near TikTok. But I thought, what a smart way. To promote what you do in this space when your competitors are nowhere to be seen.
Because you know, if you think about the nature of the audience of TikTok, which is still relatively young, what a great way to educate these people about the law, but do so in a really entertaining and inspiring, helpful way. So definitely I’ve seen examples of that. Lots of financial experts that have appeared on TikTok, particularly when it comes to property buying and investing as well, which again is really helpful for a lot of younger people who have found some of that real.
I mean, look, Matt, we’ve got more people investing in stocks and shares. Than we have ever had in a generation. I would put a massive amount of that down to social media and some of the tech platforms supporting that, because traditionally they wouldn’t be going to financial advisors or to banks. So I think what’s really interesting is seeing that growth develop there.
[00:19:36] Mike Allton: There’s definitely a lot of room on that platform for businesses that have traditionally not done a lot on social media to really, really do well. One of my favorite TikTok ERs is actually a cloth and a, and a and a suit, a tailor, and leads, and he’s just got the best TikTok channel. I love it. Every video he’s teaching you how to tie a tie and.
Properly find a, a suit jacket that fits and every once in a while he’s showing you some antique satchel or something that he’s purchased that’s available for sale, and they’re all, you know, just really interesting, really well done, but very simple videos as well. Often it’s just a single shot from a distance in his shop.
Yeah. Very clever. Yeah, very clever. Now, one of the conclusions the report reached that you actually already touched on was that brands will invest even more in influencer marketing this year because it quote remains one of the cheapest forms of branded content. Mm-hmm. , how was that conclusion reached?
[00:20:32] Gordon Glenister: Well, I mean, you know, you can buy influencers now extremely cost effectively for a couple of thousand dollars. You could get a number of nano influencers to run a campaign with you, and that’s not including gifting. I mean, there’s still plenty of examples of where gifting can be a very successful medium, although there are no guarantees that when you send a gift to an influencer, they’re going to post about it.
But if you really thought. And find the right influences that are bang on your profile and you’ve taken the time to engage with them before perhaps reaching out. When I say engage with them, I mean comment and like some of their posts so that when you do reach out to them, you make time to make reference to that.
You know, nurture that and recognize, you know, some. Built like a considerable audience that’s in your target space. You know, that’s an achievement. What influencers hate more than anything else is when somebody reaches out to them and says, dear Influencer, and it looks like it’s one of a thousand emails that they’ve been sent.
This is a human being at the end of the day, working very hard in many instances to create really amazing and relevant content for their audience. Cause remember, there’s two things that are very important for an influencer. One, to grow and nurture their audience. Two is to be paid for their content that they have created and the advertising opportunity that that audience presents
[00:21:59] Mike Allton: could not agree more.
Now, let’s hear now from our CMO at Agorapulse about how brands should be investing in another channel.
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Okay, now, but you’re not the CMO of Paris. In fact, you’re the CMO of your company product service. So what are your main channels? So I’m gonna. There things like paper click, maybe trade shows, events, maybe content. Those are all pretty predictable, right? Let me ask you this question. Are you treating social media as a main channel?
By the way, only 1.8% of you today measure social media and can prove an ROI in that investment. HubSpot and Gartner say, Social media is the number one channel to invest in this year. Are you doing it? If not, I can tell you why you’re not doing it. Because you don’t have the tools, you don’t have the mentality, and that’s okay.
We’ve got you covered. You changed the mentality. We’ll give you the tool. Whirl Pulse tracks all the ROI for you. One place to manage all your social media activity, your number one channel, change your success. Treat social media as the channel one CMO to another. My name is Darryl. I’m with Agorapulse.
I’ll talk to.
All right, let’s get back to influencer marketing with Gordon Glenister. Now, Gordon, the report also made the observation that brands will be working more long-term with influencers rather than one-offs. How important do you think that is?
[00:23:40] Gordon Glenister: Very important. Influencer marketing is not a silver bullet, is it?
You know, it’s the same way that, you know, if you watched an ad-on tv, Or you heard an ad on a radio station, you wouldn’t, you know, just rush out and go and buy that product straight away. You’d want to perhaps see it a, a number of times or hear it it a number of times. It’s the same with influencer marketing really.
So if you think about where you are creating a brand partnership, you are helping the influencer. Your brand with their audience in a consistent regular way. Remember, however good the influencer is, their content is only still going to be seen by around five or 10% of their audience. That’s still very small.
So they need to make that content work, which, and you know, we’re now, as I said earlier, we’re now in the attention economy, everybody. Trying to share a voice, and that is the reason why a lot of brands now are adding paid media to that influencer content to really boost it so that it’s seen by more people.
[00:24:46] Mike Allton: So what advice do you have then for B2B brands that are looking to establish those more long-term relationships for influencers? [00:24:54] Gordon Glenister: So I think, you know, I’m a bit of a, an influencer myself on, one of the things I want to do when I work with a brand is try and fight, just really understand what it is they are trying to do with their audience.
So whether or not it’s co-creating a report, which can be a very, very successful way of getting a number of. Key opinion forms, talking about research. I mean this, for example, the report that we’re talking about on influencer marketing, when High approached me, we then ran an event off the back of it and obviously then I shared that with my audience.
So their benefit, of course is that they’re getting more people seeing the report and here we are. Talking about it on another show here. So it is a really important way to find those individuals and find the medium that you think is going to work well for it. It could be a podcast, it could be a report, could be Twitter, LinkedIn.
Those are, I mean, we’ve talked a little bit about on this report about Instagram and YouTube and. But let’s not forget, particularly for b2b, uh, LinkedIn and Twitter can be very good mediums to growing that audience as well.
[00:26:06] Mike Allton: A hundred percent agree, particularly for, again, that B2B brand influencer. That’s a lot of the people that I work with.
That’s like you, that’s me. I’m a B2B brand influencer have been for years. LinkedIn is one of the most important platforms to focus on now, at one point, the report claims that 60% of YouTube subscribers make purchases based on creative recommendations and that the longer form video is preferred.
Because of the depth of information it affords. But then later the report stresses the recommendation of short form video. So here’s my, my last question for you, which is it? Do brands need to choose one or the other when it comes to short formm versus long form video? Where do we land?
[00:26:46] Gordon Glenister: So my view to with that is it depends on the content.
I mean, if you look at educational courses, for example, if you look at more in-depth interviews, if you look at demos and things like that, makeup tutorials, then long form content can work really, really well. But where we are talking and we look at, look, YouTube has been promoting YouTube shorts really almost as a way to compete with TikTok more and more.
It just really depends on the type of content, what you are trying to say. Sometimes short videos can be almost like a trailer version of the bigger content. Almost like leapfrogging say, look, this is, this is what you know. Here’s the short session today. Go and have a look at the full version on our YouTube channel so people get a taste and a sense of what something’s about it they want.
They can go and see that in longer form. But it is interesting, isn’t it, just to see how things are changing and you know, if you really, we were talking about some, some content earlier. If you really like somebody and you really follow them, The fact that you can, these creators are holding the attention of their audience for 45 minutes to an hour, or if it’s livestream, I mean, I know that some live streamers there that are like always on, if they’re selling products hours and hours and hours and you think, wow, you know, haven’t things.
[00:28:14] Mike Allton: You’re so right. In fact, it’s a tactic that we use here for this show, right where this is a long form video show. We go, you know, 20 to 45 minutes on average. Some of the shows are recorded and go straight to podcasts. Others like you, we broadcast live first and then it goes to the podcast. But for every single one of those, we record video first and we take some snippets of that video and we turn it into.
Short form, vertical video that we’re able to put to YouTube shorts, TikTok to Instagram reels to give people a taste of the kind of conversations that we have here on partnership unpacked.
[00:28:48] Gordon Glenister: Well, and more than this, that’s example of exactly what I’ve just said. So a great, great example. [00:28:54] Mike Allton: Yeah. Gordon, this has been fantastic.
I love having you here. I’m so glad we get to have these kinds of conversations. Can you let folks know where they can follow you, where they can learn more about you and the work that you’re doing, your upcoming film series in Portugal that I expect to be invited to next? , where do we go? ,
[00:29:14] Gordon Glenister: So I’ve got my website, which is gordon glenister.com and pretty much everything is on there. You can follow me on LinkedIn on all the channels really. I mean, fortunately I think there’s only one Gordon Glenister, so that’s quite helpful and you should be able to find me there and happy to follow everybody back and help wherever I can. [00:29:32] Mike Allton: Awesome. Well, that’s it. That’s all we’ve got for today, folks. I appreciate that you came by. If you wanna show up to more live shows like this, be sure to subscribe to the show calendar at agorepulse.com slash calendar. We do this about once per month, so we’ve got one already scheduled up for next month.
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